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Government opens can of worms with term-time holiday ban for school kids

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/gove-set-to-ban-family-holidays-in-termtime-7216685.html

I reckon this will be a much, much hotter topic than Gove realises, simply because of the fact that so many parents who are struggling economically cannot afford to take children away during peak-season school holidays - there will be a backlash from them for sure.

Having said that, and I am on the other side of the political divide than Gove, I must say that I have some real sympathy for what Gove is trying to do here, he is trying to break the truancy culture and is there really a more flagrant form of truancy than buggering off to Spain with your parents for two weeks during term time!!!???

I would be really interested to get peoples views on this one, my own situation is a bit different because I can only take my own holidays at set-times during the year anyway (no, I am not a teacher), but I know many folks on here have taken their kids out during term time for economic or logistical reasons.

Your views?
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Comments

  • Of course it's very important for kids to attend school but unless it's very often I think that two weeks in another country has as much benefit educationally as two weeks at school. It's the casual day to day non attendance that's the real problem.
  • I'll beg to differ SHG, 2 weeks on a beach in Benidorm is not going to be much benefit.
    For the record i won't take my son out of school for a holiday.
  • depends on their age, time of year etc...my little girl is nearly 5, I'd take her out of school no problem for a week, especially towards the end of term, although I wouldn't around any exams etc.

    it's a tough one, guy I work with has booked and is taking his 3 kids out of school for a week this summer, he's just been fined £200 per child for the week !
  • Never took my son out of school. If we couldn't afford a peek time holiday we didn't have one.
    You dont need 2 weeks in the sun every year.
  • depends on their age, time of year etc...my little girl is nearly 5, I'd take her out of school no problem for a week, especially towards the end of term, although I wouldn't around any exams etc.

    it's a tough one, guy I work with has booked and is taking his 3 kids out of school for a week this summer, he's just been fined £200 per child for the week !

    Blimey! I didn't know you could be fined, who actually fines you and how do they enforce it?
  • Wonder what parents would think if their kids' teacher just took a couple of weeks off in term time?

    You learn too much both academically and socially in a relative short period of time in school, no probs with the proposals in my eyes.
  • I'll beg to differ SHG, 2 weeks on a beach in Benidorm is not going to be much benefit.
    For the record i won't take my son out of school for a holiday.

    My thoughts as well
  • My daughters secondary school already threaten action for any term time holiday
  • not sure who, didn't get the full story, but something to do with the education authority, he wasn't happy - defeated the object of the holiday outside of school holidays
  • Why isn't there a travel firm that specialises in cheaper fares for parents & children during the holidays? They'd make a killing surely

    I took my girls out of school for holidays, because at their ages, I believed it wouldn't hurt, but now my eldest is due to go to secondary school, I wouldn't
  • Why isn't there a travel firm that specialises in cheaper fares for parents & children during the holidays? They'd make a killing surely

    Simple really, they make a real good killing dueing the holidays

  • The head teacher makes the decision to fine £50. I'm a teacher and my head has just started
  • One aspect of the problem that we don't hear too much about around here but is prevelant in East London and places like Blackburn and Bradford. Are the Asian parents who send thier kids home to Pakistan for months at a time. At my sons school in Chislehurst one of the Afican kids has been sent home as his parents thought the standard of education was better in Sierra Leonne.
  • Just wish I could afford a family holiday this year :(

    And for the record - Michael Gove is an insipid little Tory xxxx!
  • A Tory policy I agree with!

    One point missed is that if little Jordan and Jamie take a week off skiing then another couple in the summer, then a few days here and there to go to Alton Towers, etc - all of a sudden they're missing a month of school. It's not just the effect on them per se but on the rest of class because the teachers then have to spend extra time with those kids making sure they catch up on what they've missed meaning that the rest of the class is put at a disadvantage. Multiply this by half the class and you’ve got a real problem with students not making as much progress as they should be.

    Plus everyone gets to have the holiday they want i.e. with other families or without other peoples children being around.
  • Am likely to do if for very exceptional circumstances in a few weeks time for 7-14 days (don't know yet), but in principle wouldn't any other time and think the older they get, the more important it is to not miss weeks at any given point. They learn an awful lot very quickly these days.
  • What gets me is these inset days that schools take. For those who aren't aware they are a number of days that the school closes (outside official holiday dates). These are not always readily available at the start of term.
    If the school deem them necessary, then why not take them all at once (ideally after a bank holiday). This would allow you to take your child away at an off peak period, whilst schooling disruption is kept to a minimum.
  • If I choose to take my daughter out of school for a week then its my perogative. I wouldn't do it for more than a week and not more than twice a year. Let them try and fine me.
  • I've had 3 holidays during term and it hasn't done me any harm.
  • Would rather they use their powers to make sure the Travel and Tour operators bring their prices down from the over-inflated amount currently charged when Kids break up from School.
  • h

    What gets me is these inset days that schools take. For those who aren't aware they are a number of days that the school closes (outside official holiday dates). These are not always readily available at the start of term.
    If the school deem them necessary, then why not take them all at once (ideally after a bank holiday). This would allow you to take your child away at an off peak period, whilst schooling disruption is kept to a minimum.

    Because they are used for coursework marking and moderation, training which cant be done all in one go and needs to be ongoing, co-ordination of issues such as students causing concern - which obviously dont appear at convenient days.

    I'm not sure the posters on this thread realise quite the level of disrutpion that is occurring in schools these days. In some schools it has got out of hand - students missing 6 weeks a year (usually with parents who complain the loudest at the end of the year when their levels have dropped and who expect each teacher to provide catch up work tailor made to their special ones.)

    If you have chosen to have kids, its fairly obvious school holidays are more expensive. It has always been the case. Simple supply and demand rules apply. Budget for it. No one is stopping you take your kids out for you to save a few quid - its just there needs to be a deterrent to level the playing field so more parents will do the balance of cheaper holiday plus fine vs not missing education.

  • I have never taken either of my two children out of school for a holiday and would not on principle. Academically, they would miss so much work and then have to spend the next few weeks playing catch up whilst studying the current work. Socially it can cause problems as well. Unfortunately, when they return to school, it is not always possible to catch up on activities or topics that they missed e.g. a science experiment or drama performance for coursework. They may 'complete' the written work missed on their return but not necessarily understand it because they missed crucial teaching time. It puts them under unnecessary pressure, particularly at secondary school.
    Equally, I have some sympathy for families who do take term time holidays because of cost. However, I do think it depends on what the 'experience' is going to be as to whether it outweighs the negatives.
    It is also very disruptive and time consuming for the teachers who have to ensure that the children complete all missed work and tests etc. on their return. In my opinion, for what it is worth, it is disruptive all round.
  • Doing it for the first time this year.Also probably be the last. 1 week.My eldest is 5. Not a beach holiday either .
    Never thought I would until I saw the absolute extortionate rates they charge during the holidays.nearly a 300% mark up!
  • I took my 13 year old daughter on 'holiday' during term time last year. I wrote a letter arguing our case 4 months before the holiday dates (she would have missed 3 days school) and stated the benefits of the 'holiday'. The break was to attend the isle of wight music festival and I explained the benefits to her confidence, that she would be prepared to cover any missing coursework before the break and that a diary would be written about the experience. All true and they said yes. She wants to be a writer and seeing the real world has been an important element to her development. Leave it to the heads to judge on a case by case basis.
  • Can't see why they cant allow ever child one off exceptional holiday of say a maximum of two weeks once in there school life.
  • BDL said:

    Would rather they use their powers to make sure the Travel and Tour operators bring their prices down from the over-inflated amount currently charged when Kids break up from School.

    A Tory government clamping down on an industry that exploits the ordinary working man for profit? Never going to happen mate.

    Wouldn't be surprised if Cameron and his ilk even think the workers deserve a fortnight in the sun.
  • I am with clem, they are my kids , I will chose what is the right thing for them and my family as a whole,


    When they start dealing with the feral scum on the streets and the no good junkie alcoholic workshy maggots, the gypsy children that travel the country not attending any formal education,


    Then I will take a fine
  • Big difference between taking a 6 yr-old and a 14 yr-old out, but I'm OK with this policy - and adhering to it has personally cost me shedloads.

    Don't buy the 'travel [to Orlando!] broadens the mind' argument (& i bet some schools would turn a blind eye to a genuinely enlightening trip). School trips do that job, and that would also be the way for low income kids to have varied trips. The family holiday - I guess it's camping, caravan or similar - no it's not exotic but it's still a holiday. You can find a way. Of course low income is not much fun, I realise that...
  • although I undertand what Mr Gove is trying to do, like most politicians he has got the wrong end of the stick & punishing the wrong parents. Truancy maybe a big problem, but it is not children from "normal" households missing a few days at the end of a school term that is the real problem, but "feral" kids missing whole weeks & months of their education.

    Last year I asked if I could take my 2 children of school age to centre parcs during term time (missing jut 4 days as they were only starting back on the tuesday) and was told categorically no............i did it anyway as the price was double otherwise and any fine (I was told the council could fine me £100) would be worth taking. I don't like doing this but I have very few options due to my family circumstances. Also I will continue to take this stance , especially when the school then decides to take an inset day (teacher training days that used to be called Baker days) on the first day back from a holiday (like today). YTeachers get 12 (TWELVE) weeks holiday a year, compared to most people's 4 or 5. I understand that some of the days they are working, but it is still hell of amount of time off. A lot of parents have to work during school time and so arranging child care is a problem..........to add another day when the teachers have just had a week off is adding insult to injury & so if the school persists in taking this stancei will persist in taking mine.
  • My oldest son took 2 months off to go to India in year 8 probably one of the best things he's ever done for his education, and development as a person, returned with a much enhanced perspective on the world and much more confidence and respect for his elders due to the project he was on.

    A close neighbour took her daughter out for a year as was very unhappy at school, again incredibly positive results did not suffer educationally and now at university.

    I would not hesitate to take my youngest son who is in year seven away from school during term time if I felt it was best for him as a person and he was gaining greater worldly experience then sat in a classroom.
  • although I undertand what Mr Gove is trying to do, like most politicians he has got the wrong end of the stick & punishing the wrong parents. Truancy maybe a big problem, but it is not children from "normal" households missing a few days at the end of a school term that is the real problem, but "feral" kids missing whole weeks & months of their education.

    Last year I asked if I could take my 2 children of school age to centre parcs during term time (missing jut 4 days as they were only starting back on the tuesday) and was told categorically no............i did it anyway as the price was double otherwise and any fine (I was told the council could fine me £100) would be worth taking. I don't like doing this but I have very few options due to my family circumstances. Also I will continue to take this stance , especially when the school then decides to take an inset day (teacher training days that used to be called Baker days) on the first day back from a holiday (like today). YTeachers get 12 (TWELVE) weeks holiday a year, compared to most people's 4 or 5. I understand that some of the days they are working, but it is still hell of amount of time off. A lot of parents have to work during school time and so arranging child care is a problem..........to add another day when the teachers have just had a week off is adding insult to injury & so if the school persists in taking this stancei will persist in taking mine.

    Golf,

    How on earth can it help you cover the twelve weeks holiday when you use some of yours taking them away during term time?

    I don't approve of taking kids out during term time but then I'm more concerned with my son's education than I am In showing the school how important I am and that I can do what I want.

    With some of the comments on here is it no surprise to me that we seem to have so many under 24 year olds that are struggling to get jobs. For goodness sake don't they get enough hoidays for you all to choose a couple of weeks. And if you can't afford a holiday when the the schools are shut then don't go. Talk about having to have everything.

    Last year my brother-in-law got married in Greece and in order to prevent my son missing any time off school my wife went on her own for a week.

    If you don't want to make the sacrifices don't have the children in the first place!
  • 50 quids probably worth it given the apparent savings :) this smacks of tory hot air to me rousing the blue rinse brigade etc i am pretty sure Heads are capable of exercising disceretion
  • @Shrew - I agree, I took a month off a few years ago to go on a visit of most of Asia and Australia; I'd say it benefited me far more than the last 2 weeks that schools spend playing films during lessons. It helped broaden my knowledge and understanding of cultural differences and taught me a hell of a lot more about the world than any Geography lesson.
  • Load of rubbish with politicians that have little idea of the real world. The two reasons I can see for this are 1,Punish the decent parents who wont make a big fuss about it and they can bring down their truancy numbers.Instead of the parents who let their kids stay away for weeks on end.
    2,The rip off Britain culture where a huge mark up on holidays in school holiday time seems acceptable, that mean little to the overpaid expense fiddling crooks that inhabit the corridors of Westminster who can afford any holiday they want during their huge Summer Recess.
    Apart from during external exam years in my experience not a huge amount of work is done in the final weeks of the Summer term so what is the problem with the politicians? More Nanny state? Statistic "massaging"?
  • LilAddick said:

    @Shrew - I agree, I took a month off a few years ago to go on a visit of most of Asia and Australia; I'd say it benefited me far more than the last 2 weeks that schools spend playing films during lessons. It helped broaden my knowledge and understanding of cultural differences and taught me a hell of a lot more about the world than any Geography lesson.

    Would you not have learned all of that if you'd gone in the school holiday?

  • razil said:

    50 quids probably worth it given the apparent savings :) this smacks of tory hot air to me rousing the blue rinse brigade etc i am pretty sure Heads are capable of exercising disceretion

    Exercising diseceretion - is that some sort of bodily fluid..........:)?


  • At the school I teach at, we treat it on a case by case basis and it seems to work fine. Where students do miss school, they have work set for them and they and their parents know that they have to catch up. Most of the trips that do get granted tend to be for family/religious reasons, not just jollies to Benidorm. Ironic that Gove bleats on about handing power back to schools but doesn't seem to credit us with the smallest amount of common sense...

    By the way, Inset/Baker days aren't additional to the holidays for us teachers - they're training days that replaced days that used to be holidays (so kids spend no less time in school because of them). Robbo on the Wing - some schools do lump inset days together in a single week, though as we do focused training on these days (at least in my school), I definitely gain more from having them spread over the year so I have time to implement the ideas I pick up, see how they work, come back to them on future training days etc.
  • @kings hill addick - The trip in itself lasted the entire summer holiday, I returned with only a Sunday to get over my jet lag. Its not the people who infrequently take a week or so off at a reasonable time period who should get the backlash of this petty ban, the real focus should go on truants; I still had a 97% attendance record by the end of the year so the government has got the wrong idea in this.
  • What gets me is these inset days that schools take. For those who aren't aware they are a number of days that the school closes (outside official holiday dates). These are not always readily available at the start of term.
    If the school deem them necessary, then why not take them all at once (ideally after a bank holiday). This would allow you to take your child away at an off peak period, whilst schooling disruption is kept to a minimum.

    These days were added on to the school year by Kenneth Baker, an Education minister under Margaret Thatcher. Previously they had been school holidays!
    What is happening now in Secondary schools is surreal though. Under pressure to produce Examination results, teachers are pressured to put on catch-up sessions after school, and complain to parents if their child doesn't attend. Some of these sessions are for coursework in 'controlled conditions' which exam boards now insist on. The exam boards are not brave enough to call them exams, which in effect they are (just not fixed to an exam timetable)...it certainly isn't coursework in the understood sense.
    Now you have kids not bothering much in lessons, and saying they will do it in 'catchup' which they then don't attend, or attend haphazardly.
    Or the kids complain that all the subjects have after school catch up at the same time, on the same days, and want it 'timetabled' better. Parents sometimes contact schools, apologising that their son or daughter can't attend one session in a particular subject because they have to attend another one (or two, or three).
    The actual school day, or school week is disintergrating for teachers, students and their families. At English GCSE there has to be so many hours of 'controlled conditions coursework' that lots of teaching simply does not happen.

  • I have taken my daughter out of school at this moment in time, to attend a family wedding in Australia, two weeks out of school and the half term week. She is in year seven, we wrote to the school telling that we were going, they didn't approve the trip, however didn't fine us for taking her out. We wrote a letter to each of her teachers asking for homework for her to do whilst she was away from school.

    The thing is that supply and demand during the school holidays allows firms to charge what they want, they isn't a lot parents can do, other than take their kids out during term time.
  • To Kings Hill; my children are aged 8, 7 & 5..............I don't think missing a couple of days of them doing their times table or spellings will do them much harm. I certainly wont do it if they were 14 or 15 and missing work needed for exams etc............

    To Sao{auloAddick : can't you do the training during the week you are off - or do you need 12 weeks holiday a year ??
  • I have taken my daughter out of school at this moment in time, to attend a family wedding in Australia, two weeks out of school and the half term week. She is in year seven, we wrote to the school telling that we were going, they didn't approve the trip, however didn't fine us for taking her out. We wrote a letter to each of her teachers asking for homework for her to do whilst she was away from school.

    The thing is that supply and demand during the school holidays allows firms to charge what they want, they isn't a lot parents can do, other than take their kids out during term time.

    Or not go on such an expensive holiday.

    It's no wonder that the country is in such a financial mess.
  • They should fine them and then pay the money to the dogsbody teachers who will be expected to give up even more of their almost non-existent spare time to help the little darlings catch up on what they have missed when they were on their 'educational' trip to Benidorm, or wherever. Even better, take them out of school, then you get to keep them all day, every day and they aren't allowed to come back. Problem solved!
  • There are the same number of teaching days as a decade ago, though Seth.
    If by 'catchup' you mean revision sessions, then these have always taken place. There may be some 'catchup lessons' for lower ability students who struggle in class - this is a good step forward from the old days.
    Controlled assessment will sometimes, and it is relatively unusual, be undertaken outside classroom hours.
    This will be if the students timetables are complicated and they need to be withdrawn from a number of option subjects to take, say a History CA.
    The initial reason for controlled assessment (CA) was not an insitance from exam boards, but rather from parents who felt that the coursework they replace was too often being done by parents and not students. The parents who played by the rules felt they were being cheated by the parents who helped their children, This got out of hand and the sensible alternative was controlled assessment.
    The second reason was again from parents whose children didnt flourish under written exam papers. CA can be brilliant for children who are good at manipulating data - a skill required in real world workplaces. Frankly 2 and a half hour exams (without access to computers) many of us were used to are skills no longer required in todays world. How often would this skill be needed in any office? CA is far more realistic.
    you say a lot of teaching doesnt get done during controlle assessment but this is somewhat disingenious - teaching doesnt get done during exams, and usually CA.

    Golf - its not as simple as you state, as noted in my earlier post.



  • To Sao{auloAddick : can't you do the training during the week you are off - or do you need 12 weeks holiday a year ??

    The training is during the time we are "off". Inset days replaced holidays, not teaching days.

    And yep I'll stand by my 12 weeks holiday - during term time I work my nuts off! I can't say this for every school, but in my school teachers and students are absolutely fried by the end of term. We do benefit from the time off to recharge batteries, mark books, plan lessons, produce resources etc.

    And before anyone says anything about pampered public sector workers I worked in the private sector for over 10 years before I became a teacher, doing a job that involving long hours and plenty of stress, so I have something to compare it to - the hardest I've ever worked is the last few years as a teacher, holidays or not.

  • I have taken my daughter out of school at this moment in time, to attend a family wedding in Australia, two weeks out of school and the half term week. She is in year seven, we wrote to the school telling that we were going, they didn't approve the trip, however didn't fine us for taking her out. We wrote a letter to each of her teachers asking for homework for her to do whilst she was away from school.

    The thing is that supply and demand during the school holidays allows firms to charge what they want, they isn't a lot parents can do, other than take their kids out during term time.

    Or not go on such an expensive holiday.

    It's no wonder that the country is in such a financial mess.
    I have spent the last year working overtime to pay for it, working away at weekends, starting at 6 am during the week and sometimes after midnight. Lucky I could do it and somehow i think i've earn it. The amount I've paid in tax whilst working overtime, I don't think the mess the UK is in, is only down to me.


    I didn't have a holiday last year and will not be having one during the summer.
  • I have taken my daughter out of school at this moment in time, to attend a family wedding in Australia, two weeks out of school and the half term week. She is in year seven, we wrote to the school telling that we were going, they didn't approve the trip, however didn't fine us for taking her out. We wrote a letter to each of her teachers asking for homework for her to do whilst she was away from school.

    The thing is that supply and demand during the school holidays allows firms to charge what they want, they isn't a lot parents can do, other than take their kids out during term time.

    Or not go on such an expensive holiday.

    It's no wonder that the country is in such a financial mess.
    KHA. I can only assume you are on a wind up. Read what he wrote.

    You obviously see yourself as some sort of paragon of virtue. Unfortunately, you are utterly deluded if you really believe that by attending a family wedding in Australia Guiness Addick is contributing to the countries financial woes.
  • Also I will continue to take this stance , especially when the school then decides to take an inset day (teacher training days that used to be called Baker days) on the first day back from a holiday (like today). YTeachers get 12 (TWELVE) weeks holiday a year, compared to most people's 4 or 5. I understand that some of the days they are working, but it is still hell of amount of time off. A lot of parents have to work during school time and so arranging child care is a problem..........to add another day when the teachers have just had a week off is adding insult to injury & so if the school persists in taking this stancei will persist in taking mine.

    Oh come on Golfie! They can't win over the timing of inset days. You whinge about the inset days being put at the end of the holidays, whereas if they'd put them as a random day in the middle of term, a load of other parents would be complaining it'd make more sense to tack them onto the end of the holidays, so they could extend the time they took away.

    Personally I can understand why parents might want to take their kids away out during term time, because prices go up so much in the school holidays, but unless it's an exceptional reason (family wedding overseas etc) then I don't think it's on to take your kids out for an extended period in the middle of the school year. Even if they get given "homework" to take with them, it usually means they are behind on the stuff covered over that period, and the teacher ends up having to go over it again for their benefit later. I'd say the exception is probably the last couple of weeks of summer term when school trips and special activies are happening, but even that doesn't necessarily apply in year 10 and 12, as there may be coursework catch-up going on.
  • I have taken my daughter out of school at this moment in time, to attend a family wedding in Australia, two weeks out of school and the half term week. She is in year seven, we wrote to the school telling that we were going, they didn't approve the trip, however didn't fine us for taking her out. We wrote a letter to each of her teachers asking for homework for her to do whilst she was away from school.

    The thing is that supply and demand during the school holidays allows firms to charge what they want, they isn't a lot parents can do, other than take their kids out during term time.

    Or not go on such an expensive holiday.

    It's no wonder that the country is in such a financial mess.
    I have spent the last year working overtime to pay for it, working away at weekends, starting at 6 am during the week and sometimes after midnight. Lucky I could do it and somehow i think i've earn it. I didn't have a holiday last year and will not be having one during the summer.
    Why are you justifying yourself? If you chose to take out a 10k loan from Wonga.com to pay for the trip it has absolutely nothing to do with anyone but yourself.
  • There are the same number of teaching days as a decade ago, though Seth.
    If by 'catchup' you mean revision sessions, then these have always taken place. There may be some 'catchup lessons' for lower ability students who struggle in class - this is a good step forward from the old days.
    Controlled assessment will sometimes, and it is relatively unusual, be undertaken outside classroom hours.
    This will be if the students timetables are complicated and they need to be withdrawn from a number of option subjects to take, say a History CA.
    The initial reason for controlled assessment (CA) was not an insitance from exam boards, but rather from parents who felt that the coursework they replace was too often being done by parents and not students. The parents who played by the rules felt they were being cheated by the parents who helped their children, This got out of hand and the sensible alternative was controlled assessment.
    The second reason was again from parents whose children didnt flourish under written exam papers. CA can be brilliant for children who are good at manipulating data - a skill required in real world workplaces. Frankly 2 and a half hour exams (without access to computers) many of us were used to are skills no longer required in todays world. How often would this skill be needed in any office? CA is far more realistic.
    you say a lot of teaching doesnt get done during controlle assessment but this is somewhat disingenious - teaching doesnt get done during exams, and usually CA.

    Golf - its not as simple as you state, as noted in my earlier post.


    There are indeed the same number of teaching days Floyd, but I don't agree with you regarding the old (voluntary) revision sessions and the controlled conditions fiasco we have now. In the past students did a bit of coursework in their own time, handed it in, and the teacher would look at it and suggest improvements in their own time, and it would go to and fro a few times like that. Now conditions have to be created in the school, either taken out of teaching time, or in after school sessions...which teachers will do unpaid. I agree that old fashioned exams leave a lot to be desired, but now we have the dogs dinner of a system. revision sessions would be sometimes for selected students who needed it, now all students have to be served by such sessions, (although if in the Easter holidays teachers will get paid for doing them). Schools have yet to develop a coherent strategy for coping with the present mess.

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