NCP car park penalty

Latimer Member
edited January 2012 in Not Sports Related
I bought a car park (NCP operated) ticket at Manningtree station yesterday at 11.06 am, opened my drivers door and put the ticket on the ledge. bought my rail ticket at 11.12am and went back to my car, opened the passenger door to put something in my glove compartment, locked up and got my train. Got back to my car at 8.30pm to see a penalty notice attached, and found that the non adhesive ticket was lying on my drivers seat probably blown there as it was a windy day when I returned to my car briefly to put something in my glove compartment.

£75 fine reduced to £50 if paid in 14 days however I have written to appeal. Anyone have any experience as to whether it is likely to be upheld or will it been seen as frivolous just like Osei Sankofa's sending off at Arsenal?
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Comments

  • Leroy AmbroseLeroy Ambrose Member
    edited January 2012
    You won't win. It won't be seen as 'frivolous' (there's no such thing with parking appeals), but because you have appealed, you have foregone your right to pay the reduced fine and you will have to pay the full £75. Should have just paid the fifty quid as 'blown off the dashboard' does not constitute acceptable grounds to appeal on.
  • Would have thought if you sent them a copy of the ticket they would accept it and wave any penalty,if not then fight it. I would not say explicitly that the ticket was not displayed leave them to argue that. If it happens again ever put it where it should be take a picture and send that to them as well.
  • was it one of the machines where you have to enter the registration number or part of it?
  • was it one of the machines where you have to enter the registration number or part of it?
    Good question. If it was then I reckon you've got a good case if you send them a copy of the ticket you bought, which I assume will have the date/time on it.
  • You shouldn't have admitted to the ticket being 'blown onto the driver's seat'. It's best to just give a photocopy of both, the ticket and the penalty ticket and ask why you were charged. If THEY state it wasn't visible, then argue against further action and common sense will usually prevail on their behalf.

    Then again if it's privately operated, it's not legally enforceable and if they argue - just don't pay it.
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  • Can they prove that your ticket was not visible (photographic evidence for example?)
  • I bought a car park (NCP operated) ticket at Manningtree station yesterday at 11.06 am, opened my drivers door and put the ticket on the ledge. bought my rail ticket at 11.12am and went back to my car, opened the passenger door to put something in my glove compartment, locked up and got my train. Got back to my car at 8.30pm to see a penalty notice attached, and found that the non adhesive ticket was lying on my drivers seat probably blown there as it was a windy day when I returned to my car briefly to put something in my glove compartment.

    £75 fine reduced to £50 if paid in 14 days however I have written to appeal. Anyone have any experience as to whether it is likely to be upheld or will it been seen as frivolous just like Osei Sankofa's sending off at Arsenal?

    Contest it call them and let them know what happended -they then marked the fine as contested and they will ask you to send info in ... happeneded to me and they cancelled it. - but call them first

  • Thanks guys, have got the ticket, no registration number asked for. Will probably call them first and see how they respond.
  • Happend to me latimer, I sent them a photocopy of my purchased ticket, they told me it wqs not fixed where it could be seen , , I told them it couldn't as the adhesive was faulty on the rear of the ticket, I told them that when I peeled the backing off the ticket some remained



    The fine was cancelled
  • We forgot to put a ticket on the dashboard and got a penalty notice. My wife had put the whole ticket in her purse instead of just the counterfoil to get the refund at the supermarket checkout. I sent the ticket and the Waitrose receipt to the appeals officer which showed a 60p car park refund, so I must have had a ticket. I said I acknowledged that the offence is not displaying a ticket but could they exercise discretion as I clearly had proof I had bought a valid ticket. I got the response that there was no grounds to cancel the penalty. I then wrote to the council CEO and asked why if you can prove you had a ticket the Council did not exercise its discretion. I pointed out that there is no actual offence of not buying a ticket, simply not displaying it. I pointed out how unfair this is, it was like the offence of shoplifting didn't exist, instead you were guilty of theft if you didn't have a receipt. I pretended to send a copy to my MP. I got a letter of apololgy from the CEO and the £25 penalty refunded straight back into my bank account.
  • Leroy AmbroseLeroy Ambrose Member
    edited January 2012
    Think about it from their point of view (difficult, I know - especially with so much parking legislation seemingly coming down on 'their' side - but imagine how many people would play the system if 'it blew off the dashboard guv' was accepted as a defence? Nobody would ever buy a ticket - they'd all say the same thing if they got fined. Not saying it's 'right' - having recently undergone the licensed theft that takes place in NHS car parks, I fully sympathise. Just saying that the legislation (rightly or wrongly) is there for a reason, and the reason you;ve given for not displaying can't really be considered a valid one.

    Dippenhall - where do you live? I find it bizarre that you should get a refund of the fine, because there isn't a single piece of parking legislation that supports your view. I worked for the Parking Appeals service for two years (in IT, I hasten to add - not in the appeals process itself). Not a single appeal was ever considered on the basis that a legitimately purchased ticket 'blew off the dashboard' for the reasons I've highlighted above.

    I guess some councils actually DO exercise proper discretion - and this just highlights that the vast majority of time, if it gets to the independent appeals process, the council have pretty much been sensible all the way - if it's gone that far and they still don't accept the appeal, then it seems they're mostly correct.
  • seth plumseth plum Member
    edited January 2012
    Simply say it COULD be seen, but the parking bod didn't see it. If they have photos say they didn't take a photo of the correct place.
  • Leroy it was Waverley Council. You are right there are no legal grounds for appeal in my case and I fully understood that when I first wrote. I didn't ask for the penalty to be rescinded on any legal grounds, I said why can't you excercise discretion where someone can prove they have bought a ticket.

    A council is under no legal obligation to enforce penalties for violations, it is a civil action. Of course the reason why the offence is not displaying a ticket rather than not buying a ticket is that there would be chaos if you were allowed to appeal on then grounds of losing a ticket or it being on display. The system is set up to ensure motorists can be fleeced with minimum effort not to protect law abiding citizens who breach technical violations.

    It was only the fact that I could show I must have been in possesion of a ticket that they exercised discretion and the penalty was refunded, but they had every legal right to uphold the penalty and I could not have succesfully taken it any further. I actually didn't ask for the penalty to be refunded when I wrote to the CEO, I asked for a detailed explanation of why discretion was not being exercised in my circumstances and what public good was being supported by rigidly enforcing the penalty for a technical violation where proof of payment of a parking permit was supplied.

  • Leroy AmbroseLeroy Ambrose Member
    edited January 2012
    Leroy it was Waverley Council. You are right there are no legal grounds for appeal in my case and I fully understood that when I first wrote. I didn't ask for the penalty to be rescinded on any legal grounds, I said why can't you excercise discretion where someone can prove they have bought a ticket.

    A council is under no legal obligation to enforce penalties for violations, it is a civil action. Of course the reason why the offence is not displaying a ticket rather than not buying a ticket is that there would be chaos if you were allowed to appeal on then grounds of losing a ticket or it being on display. The system is set up to ensure motorists can be fleeced with minimum effort not to protect law abiding citizens who breach technical violations.

    It was only the fact that I could show I must have been in possesion of a ticket that they exercised discretion and the penalty was refunded, but they had every legal right to uphold the penalty and I could not have succesfully taken it any further. I actually didn't ask for the penalty to be refunded when I wrote to the CEO, I asked for a detailed explanation of why discretion was not being exercised in my circumstances and what public good was being supported by rigidly enforcing the penalty for a technical violation where proof of payment of a parking permit was supplied.

    That's extremely interesting. You can no more 'prove' you bought the ticket than the council can 'prove' you didn't (easy for you to get a ticket from someone else, or pick one off the ground). That's why they don't usually exercise any discretion. I guess it might be worth a shot appealing it then - though personally I wouldn't chance it (every single appeal made on the same grounds that came through to the Parking Appeals service when I worked there had as much chance of succeeding as Susan Boyle has of winning Dancing On Ice). Not too sure whether any of this even applies in this case anyway, since I don't believe private parking contractors are subject to the same rules that apply to those operating on behalf of local authorities.
  • I stupidly once bought a ticket. Went back to my car and chucked soming on the back seat. Unfortunatly I chucked the ticket on the back seat aswell. Came back and had received a penalty notice. I then sent them the ticket and told them I had stuck the ticket to the window but because it was such a hot day the sticky bit didn't hold it up on the windscreen and they let me off. I may have just got lucky but id say its worth appealing
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  • Happened to me in welling and Tenterden. Both times, the fines were cancelled. You'll win the appeal I reckon.
  • This happened to me once. After a phone call, I sent a photocopy of the ticket to their head office (Bournemouth If I remember) and heard no more .. IF it went to court (it wouldn't because NCP know they'd lose) the judge would shat upon them from a great height for wasting court time, abuse of procedure and for being a greedy bunch of khazidwellers.
  • I had two parking tickets at a cark park in Chelmsford. Both times I had valid tickets.
    The trick is to appeal it and take it to a tribunal with the NPS
    I gave a simple story that I had a valid ticket and provided photocopies. I argued everything, even acusing
    the NPS of prejudice for allowing the tribunal in Essex County Council premises.
    I won both appeals and took Chelmsford Borough Council for over two hundred pounds in costs and expenses
    that I plucked out of thin air.
  • Happened to me at seaside - Brighton I think. Same thing windy day. I appealed with proof & was cancelled.
  • DEFINITELY appeal. Got one in Ashford last year because I didn't know you had to pay. Sent a polite letter and it worked. What people don't realise is these companies don't want bad reputations for always handing out tickets so absolutely give it a go.
  • Right, IF as you say, this is a private car park rather than a council one, then it is important to note that this is not a fine. It is a charge for breach of contract. The thing is, the contract is between NCP and the driver of the car and NCP don't know who the driver is - just the registered keeper. (Until the law changes shortly).

    So, just ignore everything, even the court threats, and they will eventually go away. DO NOT PAY THIS.

    There's plenty of discussion on the forums at pistonheads.com and you can check out pepipoo.com

    Or if you've plenty of time on your hands and want to wind up NCP, write this letter:

    {[Add their title and address, Miss Jones}

    I am in receipt of your letter dated [insert the date Miss Jones] alleging that a vehicle registered to me overstayed an arbitrary duration in a vehicle park attached to one of your {insert location}.

    As I am sure you will be aware, it is the driver of the vehicle with whom any contract to park was made, not the Registered Keeper. You will also be aware that the terms of any such contract must be set out in such a manner as to be obvious to anyone with whom you wished to make the contract. These terms must comply with all applicable contract law, such as the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977.

    Should you wish to pursue this claim, please supply evidence that the person parking the vehicle you allege to have overstayed the set duration would have had the opportunity to read the contract terms. Such evidence must be, as a minimum:
    (i) a detailed route and timings of the vehicle's travel into and through the vehicle park;
    (ii) a detailed route of the driver's passage out of the vehicle and into the {insert location} - this and the evidence listed immediately above are to show that the driver had reasonable opportunity to see and read the contract terms;
    (iii) photographs of all relevant signage in situ in locus in quo at the time of the alleged overstaying so as to show that the signs were actually readable;
    (iv) an accurately-drawn, scaled, map showing the location of each sign and indicating which you believe the driver would have had the easy opportunity to read (the routes of the vehicle and driver should be superimposed upon the map);
    (v) details of the weather conditions at the time, in particular the visibility (all to be confirmed by the Meteorological Office);
    (vi) sufficient details of the driver with whom you claim to have made a contract to enable their unique identification;
    (vii) a detailed description of the processes followed to record and analyse the evidence of the alleged overstaying; and
    (viii) a notarised statement from a senior manager at the [insert location} to the effect that your recording and analytical systems were working normally at the time of the alleged overstaying.

    Without the above, I cannot entertain your claim and any further demands for payment will be considered harassment and will be reported to the police with a view to your criminal prosecution under s1 of the Malicious Communications Act 1998, s85 of the Postal Services Act 2000, s127 of the Communications Act 2003, and/or s2 of the Protection from Harrassment Act 1997 - this last with a view to the court issuing a Restraining Order against you. Additionally, civil action will be taken against you personally and your employer to cease and desist and for the recovery of all costs, together with a substantial payment in compensation for the mental pain and suffering caused.

    I expect your reply by return, either providing the evidence requested above or indicating simply your termination of this correspondence.

  • I withdraw all previous remarks - I should have paid attention to the original post a bit more closely! Parking 'fines' issued on railway premises by private companies are, as the poster above indicates, so time-consuming for the company issuing the 'fine' that it isn't worth them pursuing you. The law on private parking enforcement is such a ridiculous nonsense that it's probably worth NEVER paying any fines - which is why so many of them clamp you (much easier for them to extract money from you when you're a captive audience)

    Be warned though - NEVER do this when the council have issued you with a fine. Local Authorities have dozens of people sitting around twiddling their thumbs just waiting for people to try and waste their time.
  • Airman BrownAirman Brown Member
    edited January 2012
    Local Authorities have dozens of people sitting around twiddling their thumbs just waiting for people to try and waste their time.
    Not in my experience. Also the number of people who lie when appealing against traffic violations and parking fines is practically equal to the number of appeals, which is why so few are upheld.

  • Just send them a copy of the ticket, tell them it was on display and unless they have evidence to the contrary that you have no intention of paying their fine.
  • A relative of mine got a ticket in LIDLs car park driving a vehicle registered to me. The penalty notice came with a photograph which proved it wasn't me, he was 30 years younger than me so no argument. Told them where to go and heard no more. But I complained to the data protection people about DVLA being allowed to give details of the REGISTERED KEEPER to someone trying to enforce a purported contract between an unknown unidentified person who may have driven my vehicle.

    Didn't get anywhere but if someone owed me money and I couldn't contact him, what would happen if I knew his wife's car registration asked DVLA to send me details of her home address so I could contact her to get details of where her husband was. Why is a civil parking dispute so serious that car park operators have been granted statutory powers to obtain personal information on a member of the public they have not met and do not know who may or may not have read a notice in a car park in order to assist progress of a civil dispute.

    Council parking is different, the system is governed by statute and they have powers to fine the REGISTERED KEEPER regardless of who was driving, so details from DVLA can at least be justified at one level.
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  • JTJT Member
    I am currently in the process of ignoring a private parking 'charge'. They have no proof that i was the driver as i have made no contact with them whatsoever.
  • JT best to do what CAFCfan sets out as it stops them in their tracks, otherwise you will get prolonged hassle if they think you will crack.
  • Appeal it - send in a copy of both your parking & train ticket and explain that you placed it where indiacted and it must have fallen off..............I've appealed on these grounds before & got the fine cancelled.
  • I withdraw all previous remarks - I should have paid attention to the original post a bit more closely! Parking 'fines' issued on railway premises by private companies are, as the poster above indicates, so time-consuming for the company issuing the 'fine' that it isn't worth them pursuing you. The law on private parking enforcement is such a ridiculous nonsense that it's probably worth NEVER paying any fines - which is why so many of them clamp you (much easier for them to extract money from you when you're a captive audience)

    Be warned though - NEVER do this when the council have issued you with a fine. Local Authorities have dozens of people sitting around twiddling their thumbs just waiting for people to try and waste their time.
    Ha ha, Leroy in engage brain before mouth shocker......
  • Don't know if this helps but I had exactly the same thing hapen to me at Maidstone so I sent the ticket in with a covering letter explaining the circumstances and they waived the fine
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